tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post6936721965289385619..comments2023-10-20T11:17:47.246-04:00Comments on Two Nerdy History Girls: Made in America: A Stylish Silk Gown, c. 1780Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-66546954662856897102015-10-14T07:00:06.620-04:002015-10-14T07:00:06.620-04:00Many thanks for all the interesting comments on th...Many thanks for all the interesting comments on this dress! I love deciphering the mysteries of a garment like this. One of the most fascinating aspects of fashion history is that there are no "absolutes" - clothing and taste are so personal that just when you think you can safely date or describe a certain style, up pops another example that's completely different. Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-48081503050024956362015-10-12T11:44:29.361-04:002015-10-12T11:44:29.361-04:00I take your point ista. What threw me was the blun...I take your point ista. What threw me was the blunt sleeve which looked like it must have had a piece of lace or some trim. The overall look and balance of the proportion of the sleeve just made me think something was missing. It actually to my mind looks very contemporary - obviously it isn't. It was interesting to go down this research route.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09004403615102176000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-91054874962051922532015-10-12T01:15:24.065-04:002015-10-12T01:15:24.065-04:00The short oversleeve seems common on robes a la tu...<br />The short oversleeve seems common on robes a la turque/circassiene/levite though aren't on all, and the minute you claim something did NOT happen, there's an extant example disproving the certainty. <br /><br />Christina Mitchell - the ruffle trim (only on the first of those fashion plates) isn't an engageante is the ruffle attached to elbow length sleeves (more as a false sleeve concept).<br />istahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15895947394368909391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-64780296857118283452015-10-11T21:03:00.837-04:002015-10-11T21:03:00.837-04:00Thank you for the pictures! I'd just seen snip...Thank you for the pictures! I'd just seen snippets of this one on Instagram from the installation.<br /><br />Hmm. I think, with the deep point in the back and lack of pleating in the bodice, that the dress actually dates to just after the war years. Maybe 1783-1787?<br /><br />I had to go back into the Galerie des Modes to corroborate, but the term they used at the time gor short oversleeves was "mancherons", in French, anyway.Cassidyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03596345781746342408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-67598489958082676192015-10-10T19:00:44.128-04:002015-10-10T19:00:44.128-04:00Thanks Isabella. I saw the link you referred to in...Thanks Isabella. I saw the link you referred to in the text and noted that the short sleeves have ruffles attached. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my comment. <br /><br />I will look at the Pinterest links.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09004403615102176000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-53477820751583855202015-10-10T17:37:41.947-04:002015-10-10T17:37:41.947-04:00Christina, I don't know of any portraits with ...Christina, I don't know of any portraits with the short oversleeves, but they're definitely in fashion plates. I linked to this one in the text:<br /> http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/gallerie-des-modes-et-costumes-fran%C3%A7ais-30e-cahier-de-costumes-fran%C3%A7ais-23e-suite-dhabillements-%C3%A0-la-mode-en-1780-ff178-circassienne-fond-de-couleur-349486<br /><br />Here are some others:<br />https://www.pinterest.com/pin/398568635748787241/<br /><br />https://www.pinterest.com/pin/73816881368550538/<br /><br />https://www.pinterest.com/pin/398568635748787241/<br /><br />https://www.pinterest.com/pin/182958803583801959/<br /><br />https://www.pinterest.com/pin/326018460502200894/<br /><br />They seem to appear only in the French plates. This was the first garment I've ever seen with them, too, which makes me suspect it must have been a short-lived trend. Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-45957400518853011162015-10-09T17:02:24.014-04:002015-10-09T17:02:24.014-04:00Interesting. I have not come across any paintings ...Interesting. I have not come across any paintings or illustrations depicting this short sleeve. Perhaps someone can direct me to a reference?<br />Thanks Isabella.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09004403615102176000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-8227996648311678062015-10-09T08:01:41.508-04:002015-10-09T08:01:41.508-04:00Christina ~ These particular sleeves didn't ha...Christina ~ These particular sleeves didn't have any further embellishments (no tell-tale pin or needle marks in the silk) - they're just a kind oversleeve that appear to have been popular at the time. It's my understanding that engageantes (or flounces, as they were called in Britain and America) were attached to the hems of sleeves that ended just below the elbow. So the mystery continues...Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-41387905787541589852015-10-07T15:25:34.762-04:002015-10-07T15:25:34.762-04:00The short sleeves would have had ruffles attached-...The short sleeves would have had ruffles attached- possibly lace. They are known as engageantes. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09004403615102176000noreply@blogger.com