tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post4527755480315893468..comments2023-10-20T11:17:47.246-04:00Comments on Two Nerdy History Girls: That Foreign Curiosity the ForkUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-80024432170052086172010-04-28T05:59:45.422-04:002010-04-28T05:59:45.422-04:00Love the blog, and your books. Did you know that C...Love the blog, and your books. Did you know that Catherine de Medici introduced the Italian fashion for forks to France when she married Henri II in 1533Freda Lightfoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15645328548631325064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-35632531686058520692010-04-06T06:56:15.312-04:002010-04-06T06:56:15.312-04:00You may joke about this, but there is still a Pret...You may joke about this, but there is still a Pretender to the English throne, recognized by many as King Francis II, the rightful heir.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_BavariaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-25234453379775420782010-04-06T05:41:42.769-04:002010-04-06T05:41:42.769-04:00Michael, I have to admit I knew nothing of this - ...Michael, I have to admit I knew nothing of this - but it makes for a most excellent theory. I also like the idea that there is still a Jacobite threat in modern London.Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-33083898666157966802010-04-06T04:26:49.160-04:002010-04-06T04:26:49.160-04:00Might there be a correlation between the more gene...Might there be a correlation between the more general appearance of forks and the discouraging of finger bowls following the '15 rebellion when those of Jacobite sympathies were thought to pass the glass over or across their finger bowl during the 'loyal toast' to indicate the 'King Over The water'? <br /><br />[At one very formal, but very old fashioned annual dinner, I attend in London the now decorative rosewater bowls still are ostentatiously removed from the table before the toast to prevent any possible suggestion of disloyalty.]Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18385689703075431439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-78382908654194179092010-04-05T19:05:44.796-04:002010-04-05T19:05:44.796-04:00Whoops, I hope no one thinks I'm making fun of...Whoops, I hope no one thinks I'm making fun of Italians here! Rather I intended to show by Croyat's comment how -- ahem -- narrow-minding people tend to be about one another's customs. The Englishman thinks the Italian manners are too refined, and his Italian dinner companions are in turn appalled by his fingers in their food. Four centuries later, and things haven't really changed...everyone's offended my SOMETHING!<br /><br />Anyway. Lady Burgley, you are right about the washing before and after meals. I probably should have mentioned that, too, but Loretta and I tryyyyy to keep these posts reasonably short. Being history-nerds, we can go on, and on, and on....<br /><br />LizzyAnne and Nightsmusic, some people (aka children of all ages) will insist on having their own way at the table, don't they?<br /><br />Blackbird Crafts, you are perceptive! I believe it's the "pea dilemma" (and other tiny, slippery foods besides) that led to the improvements in the fork in the next century -- the extra, curved tines. Makes sense!Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-86469640170848468312010-04-05T17:38:20.799-04:002010-04-05T17:38:20.799-04:00"...considered over-nice, or maybe just Itali..."...considered over-nice, or maybe just Italian." ha, very interesting and funny post.<br />The best scene I can think of involving a two tine fork is probably the meal in the Cranford miniseries, where the ladies are trying to figure out how to eat peas.<br />I've been enjoying your site.Blackbird Craftshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17922794789485395949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-59319761237830403862010-04-05T15:35:59.076-04:002010-04-05T15:35:59.076-04:00My guess is that the English weren't necessari...My guess is that the English weren't necessarily any cleaner or dirtier than the Italians--but certainly it was (and still is) common to consider foreigners and foreign ways dirtier--or stupider or in some way less good--than one's countrymen. This reminds me of the French and English women--each one asserting that her country's approach to marriage is superior.LorettaChasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03641586650738945106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-36987626796936468142010-04-05T14:18:19.800-04:002010-04-05T14:18:19.800-04:00Interesting post. I particularly enjoyed the Corya...Interesting post. I particularly enjoyed the Coryat quote.<br />But as tempting as it may be to consider sixteenth century diners as being "dirty" because they ate with their fingers, it's not entirely accurate. In the palace and in upper class homes the hands of guests were washed at the table before and after the meal with perfumed water, and some times between courses too. A host may not have offered forks, but he would have a fancy ewer and basin to bring to the table for washing.Lady Burgleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09262125653902478062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-64715950937654463152010-04-05T12:22:51.815-04:002010-04-05T12:22:51.815-04:00I'd no idea of any of this. In the middle of t...I'd no idea of any of this. In the middle of trying to convince a toddler that utensils are better than fingers, so I understand how training King Henry might be a challenge.<br /><br />Glad you explained the knife-and-fork set in the picture. I thought it was a carving set!LizzyAnnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-20946779207686481762010-04-04T23:02:52.461-04:002010-04-04T23:02:52.461-04:00Alas, it is a sad, sad thing I must admit here, bu...Alas, it is a sad, sad thing I must admit here, but my DD2 would fit in perfectly with Henry's court. The sad part is though, she's 21 and still can't abide using a fork.<br /><br />We don't take her out in public much...<br /><br />;o)nightsmusichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05984119792540771870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-59161305163001409482010-04-04T20:04:46.659-04:002010-04-04T20:04:46.659-04:00"feeling all mens' fingers are not alike ..."feeling all mens' fingers are not alike cleane."<br /><br />So does that mean that Coryat and other Englishmen believed the opposite?? That everybody's fingers are equally clean? Even considering how today everyone's addicted to hand-sanitizers, that's pretty disgusting. Guess I'll have to turn down that invite to the palace, haha.LaDonnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01968888552738293014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-20261503936084724822010-04-04T19:12:36.018-04:002010-04-04T19:12:36.018-04:00I like that theory, Monica. *g*
Henry wasn't ...I like that theory, Monica. *g*<br /><br />Henry wasn't the only one, however. I particularly liked the clerics who declared that since God had provided man with a fork in the form of his fingers, it therefore countered God's will to use an unnatural metal fork. Yow.Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-79224857140450814392010-04-04T18:31:44.090-04:002010-04-04T18:31:44.090-04:00Is it possible that Henry used the fingers will su...Is it possible that Henry used the fingers will suffice as an excuse to avoid saying he preferred not to give anyone the opportunity to use the fork as a weapon? LOLMonica Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13801472688555176112noreply@blogger.com