tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post7004282314985676731..comments2023-10-20T11:17:47.246-04:00Comments on Two Nerdy History Girls: The Finer Points of an 18th c. Man's ShirtUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-10575886773357426822018-02-09T11:35:06.070-05:002018-02-09T11:35:06.070-05:00I've just stumbled across your blogspot and am...I've just stumbled across your blogspot and am so happy to find such information on the shirts. I have two related questions firstly what was an English noblemans stock made of? In painting of the era it seems to be of a very light material as there are multiple folds. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-72600127286385092092017-06-22T01:04:15.775-04:002017-06-22T01:04:15.775-04:00To Rick...you are confusing yourself! The discuss...To Rick...you are confusing yourself! The discussion was about buttons, yet you are imagining using the techniques for buttonholes. Whilst buttonholes can be bulked up with thread or cording, this is not what the authors are discussing.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-26459721658989210652017-02-04T20:51:56.146-05:002017-02-04T20:51:56.146-05:00Rick - Sometimes a picture (or video) is truly wor...Rick - Sometimes a picture (or video) is truly worth a thousand words. The traditional thread buttons are also called Dorset buttons, and if you go over to YouTube and search "How to make Dorset buttons", you'll have a wealth of how-to videos to choose from. The buttons are easier to make than they look, and they become easier still with practice. Good luck! ~ Isabella/SusanIsabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-8371534811867643002017-02-04T17:44:41.888-05:002017-02-04T17:44:41.888-05:00"The traditional thread buttons for shirts sh..."The traditional thread buttons for shirts show here are much simpler. They're worked over a ring of thread,with two rounds of buttonhole stitch and then a single crossbar to stitch them to the shirt. I'm amazed at how quickly Mark and Neal can knock these out!"<br /><br />A bit of comment necromancy perhaps, but does anyone know of a detailed description of how to do this? I am completely failing to picture this in my brain (doesn't help that I've never actually *done* a buttonhole stitch in fabric, much less 'worked over a ring of thread'. I've read how to make them, though,and plan to use the stitch to create the buttonholes on the shirt I'm planning.<br /><br />thanks,<br /> RickRicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-78012535522996592362016-09-22T09:40:46.021-04:002016-09-22T09:40:46.021-04:00After re-enacting in linen shirt, breeches, and wa...After re-enacting in linen shirt, breeches, and waistcoat, I now favor linen in summer for my modern shirts & slacks. It's much cooler than cotton or anything synthetic. Chris Garveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00336449707256730130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-72806045925786615252016-07-30T17:13:53.419-04:002016-07-30T17:13:53.419-04:00The 1920s. The only reason to read Lady Chatterley...The 1920s. The only reason to read Lady Chatterley's Lover is for the discussion about old pullover shirts vs new "jacket-type" shirts.Paulhttp://angryhistoryguy.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-53976628847837613852016-07-04T21:42:03.174-04:002016-07-04T21:42:03.174-04:00To Anonymous who posted today, 7/4/16, what you...To Anonymous who posted today, 7/4/16, what you're describing is a French Seam and was a very common way high priced tailors and seamstresses did their seams.nightsmusichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05984119792540771870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-63437305396280366932016-07-04T18:32:07.571-04:002016-07-04T18:32:07.571-04:00Hello, Do you know if on the shirt made by Mark Hu...Hello, Do you know if on the shirt made by Mark Hutter and Neal Hurst if the side seam allowance was pressed open then turned under again and stitched down to protect the raw edges from raveling? Flat felding was another way to cover the cut edges but in the picture it looks from what I can see that the method described above was used. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-66097767208129261582016-02-29T22:39:31.479-05:002016-02-29T22:39:31.479-05:00Apples and Orananges on the way linen performs. M...Apples and Orananges on the way linen performs. My "guess" is that some folks are using "cotton" linen, while others are using "flax" linen. I just purchased a bolt of "flax/hemp" linen. All three perform differently. In addition you have weave, thread size, ect. <br />Cotton linen would "absorb" water and make one feel cold(er) at night or even in the day time. A dry bed is a dry bed. We have cotton quilts in our house that just happen to have down in them. The cotton breaths while the down traps air.<br />Cotton is "fine" in winter, just as long as you don't get it wet. In fact, outer shells are made of cotton for its stregth and breathability. Artic Anoracs are a god example. While not as good in my opinion as polar bear fur suits that the Inuit wear on occasion. However, I'm pretty sure the bears prefer we wear cotton.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-28110833271644622892014-01-08T14:05:31.615-05:002014-01-08T14:05:31.615-05:00I can speak to historic home-manufactured european...I can speak to historic home-manufactured european linen shirts a bit. Homespun linen, used by most country folk to sew their shirts, was woven in a standard loom width, which at that time was almost universally 20-22 inches in width. For ease of construction (ie not needing to hand bind raw edges) most shirts were pieced together using rectangles of, preferably, a full loom width, so that the selvedge would prevent the edges from fraying without requiring binding. That is why the sleeves tend to be near 20" in width. Body width of 40" or 60" could be achieved using full loom widths with no waste. Weaving linen cloth was labor intensive. Wasting was undesireable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-13288999168405995922012-12-08T19:00:55.744-05:002012-12-08T19:00:55.744-05:00The sleeve width seems to me to be a matter of cut...The sleeve width seems to me to be a matter of cutting geometry, mass production. <br /><br />Since the shirts were cut out of large rectangles and the body piece can only be so wide (much less wide than the width of a weaver's arm span and even more than cloths woven on mechanical shuttle machines)the sleeves as the next largest pieces probably grew to fill the cloth that had to be used.<br />I'm not sure that the suggested width of 60" against a length of 40" makes sense.<br /><br />These shirts are similar to modern standard shirt blocks which have very little to no body contour and as such are like a mass produced item; made fit all body types and sizes. Generous proportions helps with that.Roger v.d. Veldehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01171223872098970110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-74331962896699689452011-09-10T12:51:56.607-04:002011-09-10T12:51:56.607-04:00I know Mark Hutter and Neal Hurst and they are fan...I know Mark Hutter and Neal Hurst and they are fantastic. I'm so glad to see their expertise included here. What a fun site to stumble upon!Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13140016350964710222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-62614399731404145862011-05-12T10:39:47.602-04:002011-05-12T10:39:47.602-04:00Does anyone know when men's shirts' starti...Does anyone know when men's shirts' starting buttoning all the way down, not just part way, like the original split???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-88202174878703730472011-04-12T21:01:30.691-04:002011-04-12T21:01:30.691-04:00All I know is, I want one of those shirts.All I know is, I want one of those shirts.nightsmusichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05984119792540771870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-47648179240698732772011-04-12T17:49:22.524-04:002011-04-12T17:49:22.524-04:00Many thanks to you, Chris, for going to the source...Many thanks to you, Chris, for going to the source! :)<br /><br />One more note: another reader contacted me via email, suggesting that non-sewers might not understand what gussets are. They're those small square and triangular pieces inserted into a seam at stress-points. Since gussets are usually cut on the bias and therefore stretchy, they add more ease, and help prevent split seams.Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-51063012329486349812011-04-12T17:44:53.447-04:002011-04-12T17:44:53.447-04:00Anonymous, Princess Kelly, & Miss Kirstin - Gl...Anonymous, Princess Kelly, & Miss Kirstin - Glad that you're appreciating the post from Mr. Darcy's angle. :)<br /><br />Le Loup, the shirt shown is in the style of 1770, so right in the middle. All of the shirts I've seen have in fact had the buttons at the neck. I'm interested hear of ones that are open. Is your research more based in New France, with a French focus rather than English? <br /><br />As for the bone buttons - most English men's shirts have the thread ones. I understand that bone, wood, or shell buttons couldn't withstand the heavy-duty laundry techniques of the age.Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-88071401526892529582011-04-12T17:44:34.159-04:002011-04-12T17:44:34.159-04:00I asked Neal Hurst, apprentice tailor (soon to be ...I asked Neal Hurst, apprentice tailor (soon to be Journeyman!) at Colonial Williamsburg and here's a paraphrase of what he said about the width of men's sleeves:<br /><br />He's never seen a primary source why they are cut so wide. There has been some speculation that it enhances the muscles in the arms to give a rounded appearance within the sleeve of a coat. The earlier they are, the wider the sleeve seems to be. Unfortunately there are so few that survive and the construction of those survivals are all over the place. He thinks they are so varied as they were mostly not made by professionals but at home. So no definitive explanation.<br /><br />I've also heard Andrew DeLisle, one of the journeyman wheelwrights at Colonial Williamsburg, say that his linen shirts get soaked with sweat and dirt after a day of work in the Virginia heat. But they leave him feeling fresh and clean when he removes them--the dirt and sweat are absorbed by the shirt and held away from the skin. Just one man's experience, but telling.Chris Woodyardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-23194907949362708932011-04-12T12:58:21.087-04:002011-04-12T12:58:21.087-04:00Deb, your comments regarding linen are interesting...Deb, your comments regarding linen are interesting, because they're so different from my own experiences. I wonder if this is the difference between linen used in bed linen vs. linen for clothing - not that the fiber itself is different, but that there's generally more circulation of air around clothing than under a coverlet? <br /><br />Certainly linen has retained a long tradition as a cool summer-weight fiber long after it lost favor to cotton as the favorite all-purpose fiber. From my own limited re-enacting experience, dressing in linen from a shift outward was quite comfortable, and much more so than most of the modern synthetics. <br /><br />But I'd love to hear other experiences - anyone else who has worn 18th c. style linen clothing who'd care to report?Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-49279775816021612422011-04-12T12:50:04.591-04:002011-04-12T12:50:04.591-04:00Jane O-You're on the right track. Dorset butto...Jane O-You're on the right track. Dorset buttons are needlelace/wrapped thread buttons. But Dorsets have those spider-web-like crossings over the center, with more wrapping around them, and they're generally made over a hard ring of metal or bone. (You're right that they're fun to make, too; I make them with yarn to match hand-knit sweaters.) Thanks for sharing the link for anyone who wants to give them a try.<br /><br />The traditional thread buttons for shirts show here are much simpler. They're worked over a ring of thread,with two rounds of buttonhole stitch and then a single crossbar to stitch them to the shirt. I'm amazed at how quickly Mark and Neal can knock these out!Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-10906357785529036062011-04-12T07:40:31.260-04:002011-04-12T07:40:31.260-04:00This has to be the only blog on the net that can c...This has to be the only blog on the net that can combine Fabio, Mr. Darcy, and an interesting history lesson in a single post.Miss Kirstenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04690141344818238274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-52046201098316006482011-04-11T19:43:33.502-04:002011-04-11T19:43:33.502-04:00Some broad statements there, & a 100 years gap...Some broad statements there, & a 100 years gap. From what I have read during my research, the common mid 18th century men's shirt had no buttons at the neck or just one. The most popular material for buttons was bone. Shirts generally were a little lower than mid thigh so that they could be used to tuck between the legs as you say. Linen was popular because it was less expensive than cotton, but cotton was used. The gap at the neck was usually covered with a nech cloth or neckerchief.<br />Good post, thank you.<br />http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12562001301604097606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-63804620668746400732011-04-11T15:35:28.878-04:002011-04-11T15:35:28.878-04:00LOL, that's exactly what I was going say about...LOL, that's exactly what I was going say about Mr. Darcy's wet shirt~~Nifty blog, ladies, thank you.Princess Kellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-70331909507836942752011-04-11T14:59:11.844-04:002011-04-11T14:59:11.844-04:00If there weren't any white linen shirts like t...If there weren't any white linen shirts like these, then we'd never have had Mr. Darcy coming out of the pond soaking wet in one. How sad that would be!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-25253269361168340012011-04-11T10:34:08.406-04:002011-04-11T10:34:08.406-04:00Your description of linen not becoming clammy is c...Your description of linen not becoming clammy is contrary to all descriptions I have ever read. Remember how horrified people were at the prospect of sleeping in a bed that had not been aired or warmed with a pan full of coals? That's because linen absorbs water from the air and becomes clammy. So sleeping in an unaired bed would cause one to catch cold. I learned the truth of this when I took my pillow with one of my family's antique linen cases on it, to camping training on the last weekend in September. It was 90+ degrees and humid. When I got into my sleeping bag, my pillowcase was soaking wet.Debnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5022318990784415929.post-86745196179505326872011-04-11T08:43:40.568-04:002011-04-11T08:43:40.568-04:00Not sure why they're so wide, Chris. My guess ...Not sure why they're so wide, Chris. My guess (and it's only a guess) would be that it was a freedom/range of motion thing in those days before spandex. And yes, everyone's shirts seemed to have been cut on that lavish scale. Engravings of even poor folk (I'm thinking Hogarth) appear to have those same billowing sleeves, though I have to think they were still more skimpy than a gentleman's.<br /><br />Could your daughter please call into the back room to ask one of those tailors? *g*Isabella Bradford/Susan Holloway Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997375216314200469noreply@blogger.com